Episode 4: Pursuing an Academic Career as a Non-Traditional Student with Andre Anderson

Thank you for tuning in!

In this episode, my fellow MAPLer Andre Anderson and I discuss our journeys as non traditional students and what brought us to Metro State. We also discuss community and why it is so important for helping one find their purpose as well as a sense of belonging. We also discuss personal empowerment and how simply showing up can lead to new and unexpected opportunities for personal growth.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the podcast. This is the Metroscope. My name is Luke Bodones. I'm here with my guest, Andre. Please introduce yourself, Andre.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Yeah, thank you. Uh I'm Andre Anderson. I am a Maple student here at Metro State, and I'm really excited to be here with you, Luke.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Thank you. Thank you, Andre. I am a Maple student as well. Andre and I have had several classes together now. You are cohort 30. No, 41. 41, that is correct. Okay. So you are a semester behind me, supposedly. Well, welcome. We are here today to talk about our own individual journeys as non-traditional students. As you know, Metro State is a what's considered a community college. Both Andre and I started our academic careers. Well, I started my academic career in a community college, but we can get to that. Andre not is not only a student here at Metro State, but he is involved with the inner workings of the politics of the university.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I don't know if I'd say all that, but I'm definitely involved in in many different facets here, going to school and working. And yeah, I'm really excited to share some of my story and I appreciate the interlude with non-traditional students. For me, my path has been anything but traditional, but now being here at Metro for a while, I really feel I have a path going forward. I really feel like I know what I'm trying to do, what I want to do, and and that's namely helping other people, working to make systems more accountable and also more accessible to students. And so for me as a justice-impacted student who started my college experience in prison and now finishing here on campus, I know what it's like to be sidelined. I know what it's like not to be able to get my voice out. So it's it's not lost on me being here today. I really appreciate this opportunity and just to be able to have a real conversation about how I got here, where I'm going, and you know, some of the high points and some of the low points, but it's it's all part of the story. And what I'm finding is the journey is just as important as the destination. And so first I was focused on I just want to graduate and get that career and and and move on. And now I'm learning a lot more that the time in between is where the connections are made, it's where the lessons are learned, it's where, like we say in Maple, you are your network. And I recently got out in August of last year, nine months ago, after serving 12 years, and my network was very small. I I knew a few faculty and a few people here at Metro, but I I didn't have any connections in that. So nine months later, I'm fully in here at the university, things are going really well. And so just that part of the journey has been really exciting and love to be able to share more about that. And again, just really excited about this conversation today.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Thank you, Andre. I really appreciate you taking the time to be here. And I I appreciate what you said about the journey, learning to appreciate the journey. That's something that when I began my academic career, that's the exact same thing I thought was to get that degree. So, Andre, you actually have two AA degrees. Do you want to speak about how you first started?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, I mean, besides being my initials, I got two AA degrees because opportunity presented itself. So I started my academic journey in Duluth where I was born and raised. I got my AA from Lake Superior College, and then I transferred to the University of Minnesota Duluth, and I was a senior in mechanical engineering and mathematics before I came to prison. In prison, I had no options to continue school or to do anything. Then in 2021, with second chance Pell Grant, college started coming back to prisons. And I was so eager to learn, so eager for the chance to get back into school. They had an AA program offered through Minneapolis College. And initially they said, you already have a degree, you can't you can't take our program. Then they came back to me and said, Hey, we have a seat, do you want to do it? And I said, Absolutely. So everything from English Comp to all the first year classes went through those and and ended up getting my second AA degree in 2022. And then I transferred to Metro and worked on my BA degree in individualized studies, where I graduated in 2023. So yeah, I mean it's looking back at it, it was really cool to take some of the same classes, you know, a decade apart. And so when you're 18 years old taking English comp, trying to get through it, is a lot different than when you're mid-prison sentence taking English comp and using your voice to express how you feel, express some of the frustrations and the pitfalls of of being incarcerated. So it didn't feel like a repeat, it felt like again, my journey was very different at that point than when I started. And so I think being a lifelong learner is all about that. It's not so much the class or the degree or the material, but it's where you are at in life, and then applying those life skills, those life situations to the things you're learning in class. And yeah, it was just really a cool, cool experience. So that's how I ended up with two AA degrees, and and I don't I don't regret it, but it's definitely a different frame shift for me looking back that you know sometimes you have to start over and all the way over. And if I didn't start all the way over, I wouldn't be where I'm at right now. So I I wouldn't change it, but it's you know, I I've learned too that sometimes the detour doesn't have to define you, but the detour can be your destiny. And for me, that 12 years of being gone was hard, but it's made me who I am today, and and now I can be a justice-impacted student at Metro State. I can lean into that identity. I don't have to hide the fact that I have GPS bracelet on my ankle. I don't have to hide the fact that, you know, my life is not fully free, even though I'm here on campus and I have constraints. But the community here, the people here, Maple especially, has just opened their arms to me. I remember last semester coming in and taking model legislation with you, and we had Jess Hansen, representative from Burnsville, as our instructor. And we're going around for introductions, and I'm like a week out of prison, and I'm like, man, do I share my story? Do I not? And I'm like, everybody's being honest and sharing their stories and where they came from and things. I'm like, I'm just gonna lean into it. And I did, and she pulled me aside after class and she said, Welcome home, Andre. You have a spot here. And and you can't put that into words, what that feels like. The validation of I do belong here, and it's okay to share, you know, where you came from and and that. So that's kind of my my experience here in a nutshell is just being accepted, being welcomed, and when you when you believe in somebody, it really, really helps them believe in themselves. And so it's a fragile time in re-entry. It's a fragile time when you have to start from nothing, from clothes to taking the bus to you know, learning how to do some things over again. But then, man, I I do belong here. I I do have a seat at the table. Uh people care, so it's been really cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

No, and I like for those of you that don't know Andre personally, he's he shows up to class extremely prepared. I remember in model legislature looking over at you, and you had everything printed out, and I made the comment, I'm like, man, you're just like how I was last semester when I started. Like I was a little, I'm not I wasn't checked out, but I mean I was like a couple semesters in the MAPL. I really so not to backtrack a little bit, but just a little bit about myself and then kind of lead into speaking about community and owning your stories. I I really like how you phrase that. So for me, I I began my academic career just right after high school. I I graduated in 2009 and I went to Century College in White Bear Lake to pursue my AA degree. And an AA degree is usually like two years. Well, it took me close to 10 years to get my my at least eight years to get my aid degree because I went to school, didn't take it seriously, took a break, went back, didn't take it seriously, actually got on academic suspension, and then I went back, and then I didn't realize when I went to register that I had a hold and I had to have a counseling session, so I was barred from going back, I remember, and that just made me so frustrated and so angry. And it wasn't until gosh, 2016 I went back, and I know that that feeling of going back and starting over, it felt like I was starting over, and like, yeah, I had probably a year's worth of credits in. So if I wasn't starting over, starting over, but I mean I had to retake English comp. And that what you said, like taking classes as an adult, as someone with lived experiences, and and it makes a big difference. It makes a big difference on your perspective. And I think I think the non-traditional route arguably is the route to take, because it it at least in my experience and I think in your experiences, it really teaches you life teaches you to really appreciate where you are in school. And when you're when you're 18, 19, you're an undergrad, you know, it's it's different. You have a different perspective. But when you when you meet people and you you interact with people that don't have the opportunity and would kill I've met people that would literally kill for the opportunity to have an education, like we have here at Metro State. But I mean I I started so I went back the century and I got my AA degree. I got a communication certificate and a global studies certificate, and like what the hell is that, right? But I transferred to the University of Minnesota, and so what you said about wanting to, you know, get that degree and like that that was my mindset. And when I went back to school, I really appreciated the journey. I my life would be completely different if I didn't go back to school. And when I I transferred to the University of Minnesota, because that was my ideal, that was what I always that's where I always wanted to go, the University of Minnesota, no one in my family. I was a first generation college student. And I just my perspective as an older student, I mean, I was 28 when I was doing my undergrad at the U of M. And I mean, I was 10 years older than a lot of the students in my classes, and it's just a different perspective. And there I did not feel part of the community. There I felt like an outlier. There I felt like, you know, who is this guy, this man with a beard in our classes? And, you know, it's it's a weird bad Metro State, it's completely different.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah, I I couldn't agree more with you, Luke, on that. And, you know, when I made that decision to go somewhere very different from the science field to, you know, the advocacy and and leadership field, it was can I really imagine myself going back to you know University of Minnesota Duluth or or here in the Twin Cities? And it's like, maybe, but I want to go somewhere where I fit in. And that's the one thing is there's so many different people here. And you know, what I might have looked at before as those people don't know what they're doing, they haven't figured out life. Like, I never want to be like that. Now I'm actually sitting here in a chair thinking, man, when you can come together, when you can accept anybody from any walk of life, you learn so much. And the stories and the experiences that come with that have been just incredible. So, yeah, just much to your point there that life takes a different turn. And you know, for myself, I withdrew from college twice. Fully like full semester, done, walked away. Came back, picked up the pieces, went in there, withdrew again. So this is my third time. And I learned more in those withdrawals from school than than any life lesson. And what actually made me do that was that life was too much, or was I drinking too much and I couldn't focus on school or or all these other factors that came into it. And I realized how much you have to prioritize what you do. And instead of making excuses for those those absences or or pulling back, I realized you you do what you value, right? Like you put your time into things that matter. And if school matters or if learning matters, that's what you do. And so once it matters, then then, like you say, you can enjoy the journey, you can enjoy the trip, and you know, leaning into your story, like we're people, and people are inherently messy. Yeah, and to live is to struggle. And so if you try to like not be messy and not struggle, like you're gonna be fighting your whole life. But if you just say, hey, it's part of the process, and you know, just talking with you on the way over here today about classes and and you're getting ready to graduate and and some changes, and it's like, man, it sucks, but like you're gonna learn something, or maybe you get into one class you never thought you would, and maybe it opens up that one door. So I I just think like we try to mitigate, and and for me, like you said, I I plan like hell, and I'll print everything out and and I'll come to class, ready as I can be, and then again there, and we never discuss it, or or the class shifts, and I don't need it. But for me, when I plan as much as I can and I do all the prep work, it frees me up in the moment to pivot, and so it's it's just part of it, and so I it's I appreciate you sharing your journey and and how you got here and and and the different struggles you went through, but it's not something we have to run from, and I think that's the freedom of getting your voice out, just like being here today, being able to speak freely on on experiences and not trying to justify why this happened or that happened, but just hey, life hit me and I got up, and if you keep getting up, you can still be part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Yeah, you wake up in the morning and carry on, because if you don't, no one's gonna carry on for you.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

And I mean, owning the idea of owning your stories, I mean, that's what Jess Hansen. Jess Hansen is a mapler.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

But I mean, she's proud to be from uh the trailer park. I mean, she's a thing she was a teenage mom. And I'm like, please excuse me, Ms. Hansen, if you're listening to this, but she owns her story. That's part of her story as a politician. And then she went back to school, she got her master's degree, and now she's an elected representative in the House of Representatives in Minnesota politics. And she's a superstar. And I mean her telling you that, like, that's that's really nice because she recognized, you know. And I when I met you, I noticed that you're a little uncomfortable at first. And like I think I think that transition into you kind of have to find it on your own where it just clicks in the place. And like there's people here just like me, or there's people here like Jolene, who's 65 or in her 60s. Sorry, Jolene. But she's gonna be on the podcast, by the way. I need to get her on. But there's just you never know what brings people to a a place and time. And what I learned is like everyone has a story, right? I mean, obviously. But I really learned to appreciate what people don't say about themselves. Like it's one thing if you like you owned your story, but there's also that like what you don't say about yourself, but you carry it. You know what I mean? Like you you notice some of our classmates, like they they're obvious they have a lot of experiences, and like what brought us to a masters of advocacy and political leadership, like we may have different reasons for pursuing advocacy, but what unites Mapplers and like I Metro State students, arguably, is that we we have a passion, and like owning that passion and owning your story brings you like as you said, like life happens.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I mean I mean I I withdrew like three or four times, and then when I went back to school, I hit it hit it hard, and then but yeah, I it's like about owning your story and then not thinking so much about yourself because everyone has their own and and I really love the comment you made about you know what you're passionate for because I thought I had to align myself with other people who cared about re-entry or recovery or running or things that that are big parts of my life. But most of the people in my class are very passionate about very different things, and instead of trying to convince them otherwise or to I just really man, I support you in that, and I really hope you can get a win. And maybe in getting to know you, I can understand why you're so passionate about climate change or why you're so passionate about this or that. And so for me, instead of trying to like, oh, we all need to be in the same field or doing the same thing, it's man, we can support each other in our individual endeavors, but also find ways that we can work together. And so that has been a huge part of my journey here, and and I really think that's what unites us in Maple. It's never you need to focus on this or this is our stated Maple agenda of things we care about. It is what do you care about? Make a campaign for that, make a policy proposal to change that, like understanding systems, understanding how things go, and and then you soon realize you can't do it on your own. You can't make big system changes, one person, you need coalitions, you need community, you need people. And sometimes the way you you build that is you show up for other people in their endeavors, and you show up for other people in their passions and projects, and then when you have an ask, when you need somebody, you can count on them to be there for you. But it has to go both ways. So I don't think you can get anywhere in life or in school by just singly focusing on what's important to you. And so for me, being able to lean into that is really a a really big part of of my life. That am I just focusing on what's important to me or am I focusing on what's important to others as well? Because you you only get so far on your own. You'll hit a glass ceiling, you'll be by yourself, and and so I think that community part that we keep talking about is so vitally important because none of us are alone and and we may come from different things and care about different things, but when we show up together, then we can actually change things.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, I I echo that. Like I really appreciate that you say that because there's a lot of in our in our program, I'm this is this podcast is not to advertise Maple, but Mapple is very unique because there's people from all kinds of avenues. I mean, there's people for that are advocates for justice impacted individuals or transportation advocacy or community advocacy or social movements. I mean but I mean uh like we like showing up uh showing up for others as much as you show up for yourself, I think that's very important. And like going beyond community, it's like going beyond a network, it's it's uh it's a community of support. I mean, if you show up for others, people show up for you. Yeah. And I mean, not only it's not just like you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Kind of it's like collaboration on a different scale.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah, you you have to genuinely care. I mean, right? I mean, if I I genuinely care about you as a person, and so I'm gonna show up there for you. And and once you hit that point, I mean really great things can happen.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah, and I agree. I agree. And I I lost that a little bit last semester, to be perfectly honest with you. That was a difficult semester, but like reclaiming your passion, I think, is I think is very, very important. And it's not something like you don't have to have it, you don't have to wake up every single day and know what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

No.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Like, and you can start over. Like the I if you ever read the book The War of Art.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

I have not, I have not.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

I should have brought that with. My apologies, the authors, the name of the author is escaping me right now. But the the idea is as an artist or as a professional approaching the blank canvas or plain approaching the the blank page or approaching the blank slate, this idea that you start every day anew that's I mean it's okay to start over. It's like it's okay to start over every day. It's it's like you mentioned recovery and like the the thing with like AA or recovery groups, it's like if you think of the you'll overwhelm yourself if you think about the infinite uh future or the infinite past. Like if you worry about the past, you'll you'll drive yourself crazy with regret. If you worry about the future, you'll you'll drive yourself crazy with hopelessness. I mean you have I mean sometimes it's it's perfectly okay to approach every single day as the day. Like today I'm gonna do it, today I'm gonna work on this, today I'm gonna finish my project, today I'm gonna apply for a job, today I'm gonna clean my room, whatever. But like once you if you focus on today, you can handle it.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And and I really I really appreciate that point. I remember being on the inside, one of the guys that I I did a lot of time with. You know, I'd be talking about appeals, or are we talking about things that happened in the past or things that could possibly happen in the future when it's Get out and and he just looked at me and he said, Andre, you can't live anywhere but the present. All we have is right now, this moment here. I'm like, and I would push back. I'm like, that's crazy. You have to plan, you have to, you know, relitigate what happened before. But it was just always, you can only be here where you are right now and show up where you are. And so I I I really like that idea of the that blank canvas. For me, too. Every morning I try to wake up positive. It's not easy, but I'm like, I gotta at least try to have a good day. I gotta at least give it some energy right away. And if the day beats me down, then it beats me down. But I'm gonna at least try every day. And and too, I think the older I've gotten, I've realized that every day isn't an A-day, right? Like some days I can write really well, I can show up in good spaces, I can I can be the best version of myself. And sometimes I try as hard as I can, and it's just it's not great. And it's okay. But I know that it's not gonna last forever. And I think that's the thing too, is with being an adult student, with being non-traditional, I realize that the most important thing is to keep showing up, to keep coming to class, to keep going to work, to keep doing your responsibilities. Like and in time, when you look back, it's like, wow, look at all that's happened in the last nine months, the last however many years. Uh it's it's really powerful when you look back. But in the moment it might feel like, man, I suck at everything and and like nothing's working, but you know, just keep showing up and and I love that the blank slate every every day. And it's so true, right? We all have agency, we all have the ability to to show up and to do what we want every day. And we all have the same 24 hours. What we do with it is largely our choice. And so, you know, just being mindful of of that fact. And and too, I think it's contagious, right? When when you're around somebody who's positive, when you're around somebody who's highly motivated, when you're around somebody who's smarter than you, who you can learn from, like, and then you can be that person for the next person. And I think when you when we realize that we really are connected, we really are in a community or a cohort or a work group or or what have you. But when you show up, I really believe it opens up the other doors for other people to show up as well. And so when when you realize that, then I think systems can change, big problems can be solved and tackled is when we all show up.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

I agree. I agree. And I mean, as individuals, I mean, if we show up as individuals, we can show up as community, we can show up as as a powerful force. I mean, using the ICE occupation in Minnesota, for example, that's the Minnesota community stepped up overwhelmingly to protect their neighbors and to show solidarity. And I mean, as individuals, things can be daunting. I mean things can be overwhelming. But I mean, if you have a sense of community or showing up, like what you said, showing up, that's the biggest thing. I mean, you may not feel like doing it. You might feel like you're going through the motions, but I mean just as long as you're there. I mean, I this happened just for me, just Monday. I I teach just English to I have an English conversation club with a couple of people I know, uh-huh. And I just was feeling dejected. I didn't feel like doing it. But when we started the class, they they gave me gifts for just showing up and trying my best to augment or change the class and adjust the class to to help the my friends or my was my wife and my friend, just for context, but to help them improve even further, I've been putting so much effort and I I've kind of lost sight of that. And they just gave me a couple gifts just as recognition and thanks. And like for me, that really reset like for me, that really clicked for me, like, okay, well, I have to show up. Like, I'm showing up, and it feels like I'm not doing anything, even though that's so my point is even though it sometimes it feels like you're not doing anything, just you being there sends a message to a lot of people, even if you're not feeling up to it, just showing up the class. I remember I had a a chemistry class in a century, and I just hated that class. But just by dragging myself there and putting myself in the seat, putting my ass in the chair, just doing that, put like not only just put me in the class, but just set me up for success because I was putting myself there. I was showing up physically, and that led to me showing up mentally and emotionally. And like what's great about our program is like we meet a lot of diverse people. I mean, and Andre and I have had a couple classes. We had negotiation this semester and model legislature the other semester. But I mean, interacting with you, like you have a lot of different perspectives that I value. And you mentioned things like I would never even think of. And we had a negotiation exercise together. And at the time, I was irritated about your negotiation style. But then afterward, I I really appreciated how you were going about the exercise. And I thought, okay, well, he has a lot different, a very different perspective than I do in this particular context, and how to work the work through the negotiation. And I really appreciated that with you because I was thinking about that more, and I thought, you know what, like Andre has like a plethora of experiences that I don't have. And just you showing up and being your authentic self, like really motivated me to put more of my self in the in the negotiation, in the class. And with model legislature too, like it's like when you see other people's passion as well, like that for me, that helps ignite my passion.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

I really, really appreciate that. And and I really think just that when you said showing up that that presence, I you can't underestimate that. And and for me being gone for 12 years, there's so many things I wanted to show up for and I couldn't. There's so many tables I wanted to have a seat at, but I was not allowed to. And so maybe I have a hyper awareness for being somewhere. And like when the thought crosses my mind, do I go to class or not? I'm like, I have the choice to go to class in person. I dreamed about this for so long. Like, of course I'm gonna be there. And so I think I I bring that newfound appreciation of life and things, and I just remember first getting out, starting my job uh here at Metro, and and everybody was bemoaning having all these meetings on Mondays, and I was just happy and they're like, Why are you so happy? I'm like, I love going to meetings, this is great. And they're like, What's wrong with you? Just that new perspective of not having it for so long, and then being up having the opportunity to do that. So I think sometimes it always helps too. Who who's not in the studio today, right? Whose voice are we not hearing from? And if they were given an opportunity to speak, what what would they say? So I'm I'm always cognizant of that. It's really important who is there, but then are people not here because of their own volition and they can't be, or are they here because our system doesn't value their voices or opinions or or give them a seat too? So I I think I just I bring that into a lot of the work that I do, who's here, who's not, and how can I, you know, show up in a way that's respectful to the people here and the and the people who aren't here, who may be listening to this. And so I just I carry that and and so I really appreciate hearing you say that, you know, the interactions we've had and in classes, that you could see some of that, and and just when we show up, so many things are possible, and I just can't reiterate that enough.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I agree completely what you said about who is here and who is not here, whose voice is are we not here. I that's extremely well said. That's extremely well said, and especially like us, we're both white men.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

I've had to this sound very cliche. I've had to learn what my privilege is as a white man in the United States as a native English speaker. I had to truly learn what my privilege meant because I never knew that's part of having the privilege is you don't know the privilege that you have. You don't you don't have to experience the systemic oppression or you don't have to experience being excluded but what you said like uh things that you wanted to show up for and you couldn't, and you're physically unable, but there's a lot of people that want to show up and they're systemically prevented, like they're they're prevented like institutionally, like they can't and like that's why I got into advocacy to understand like how communities that don't have their voices heard, their voices that we're not listening to, like who was here that's who is not here in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah, and and I think that goes so far, and like I said, you know, initially it was people in re-entry, people who've been in prison, like that was my small circle, and the people I really cared about. My first project was you know on digital literacy and re-entry, and I was focused on that. And then moving forward now, I'm I'm what community do I live in? And and when you mentioned earlier about Jess Hansen, like I live in a trailer home, I live in a mobile home community, and so for a project that I was working on with school was the manufactured homeowners bill of rights, and I got involved with them and I got involved with my local legislature, and then I realized like I gotta get to know my neighbors. Like, why aren't these people advocating for this? And my one neighbor's 94 years old, the other neighbor, like there's so many people around me that are right there, but they don't have a voice because they don't feel like they can, or they don't want to make any noise and risk you know, getting evicted or or kicked out or things like that. So I I think initially it's yes, I'm hyper-focused on people just like me and who went through that, but that also goes to the people with the broader context, like you said, uh the systemic issues and and inabilities for people to have a say in in what's going on. So, like the organizing work that I'm doing now around my own community has opened the doors to a completely different population of people that I've never interacted with, but they're literally my neighbors. And so when you can use this work of advocacy to solve the problems that affect you, affect your community, what that problem is is gonna change, right? Because the state has so many laws and regulations and things, just you know, it's a moving target. So instead of you know answering the quintessential question that people ask me, Well, what are you gonna do with your degree when you get done? I don't know, do really cool things. I mean, like, I'm you know, like I there there's no target. It's like I'm I'm gonna do this so that I can have this job solving this problem. In a year from now, when I graduate, who knows what the problem will be to face? But I'm gonna have the tools to face the problem of the day, the tools to organize and bring people that are around me, not put together the dream team of activists and and people and organizers to solve a problem, but how do you use the people in your classroom, your neighbors, people that are your coworkers, right? The people that you probably have no choice over. How do you work with the people around you to solve the problems that you need? And and like if I get nothing else out of this experience is learning how to do that. And and I think to do that, you have to focus on relationships. It is learning to build relationships, not only that, but to value them, right? People aren't a means to an end, people are an end of themselves, and so when you can get to know somebody for the sake of getting to know them, and then yeah, maybe you can collaborate, maybe you can do something, but when you take away that, like I need to talk to that person so that they can help me do this one thing, you know, I I don't think it's gonna last. But when you get to know somebody as a person and get to know them and their struggles, and then when things come up to work together, I think you can really change things. And and that's where I'm at right now is I value that connection more than I ever have in my life. And it doesn't have to have a purpose, it doesn't have to have an aim. It can just be like me and you here today. We're we have no class projects we're working on, we're both in very different spheres in our life, but we both care about speaking truth. We both care about the program we're in, we both care about Metro State, right? And and it has so many positive things, and there's so many things that could be done better, but we care, and so I think that's what brings us together. There's no nothing, no strings attached, right? And and free conversations between people who share space are powerful, or at least I hope they are.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

I agree to that. You you said something that face the problem of the day. I'm ruffling through my notes. Face the problem of the day. I mean, you can only do what you can where you are in that moment. I mean you can't at least for me, I've learned that like you you can only do what you can with what you have in that moment with who you're with. I mean, and like learning to build relationships and learning to identify people and really value getting to know people as people rather than just meeting people to use them as a a means to an end or learning how to leverage them, there's a there's a difference between using people to your own means or leveraging their experiences and their passions and desires to to augment or to to aid you in your endeavors, and you can aid them as well. Like I if you have two, if you have completely different passions, but if you have a passion, like I might be able to help you achieve your passion just because I have some experience community organizing or have experience speaking with people like completely different like from myself, or and like I like how you said that, and that's it c it always comes back to you are your networks, and that's really cliche, but that's true.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

And you you also said something like you never know what door will open for you when.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

And if you show up, I think that's like coming back to this. Sounds so simple, but it's if you show up, like amazing things can happen. Like for me personally, my life completely changed when I went back to school. It was 10 years ago when I went back to Century College and eventually the U of M. Well, if I didn't do that, I I never would have met my wife. I had an opportunity to study abroad in Colombia, and I remember like just not even having an intuition, just seeing an opportunity and just going after it. And if you if you if you wait, like you'll lose the opportunity. In in Spanish, it's de una, like agale de una. Like just do it, like don't even give yourself time to consider it. And I had an opportunity to just go to Colombia and I just jumped on it. And like you, I've noticed you jump on opportunities to speak with people and to get to know people. And that's I really appreciate that about you, especially interacting with you in class. Like you don't give a shit, excuse my language, but you don't care who the person is because you're interested in connecting with them as an individual. You're you're interested in what they're interested in. You don't care about their position, you want to know what they're interested in. And that's why I really appreciate you. And I recognize that with you, that you're genuinely appreciative of meeting new people and being in the space. And like you, I I am adamant about being in class in person. Yeah. And because I know what it's like, like I know a lot of people that would, like, as I said, would literally kill for that opportunity. And so I'm not going to allow the chance to pass. I'm not gonna miss a class just because I don't feel like going. But I I really appreciate that, like coming back to this, I really appreciate this idea of just showing up. It's not about forcing yourself, it's just uh allowing yourself to let go of your inhibitions, to embrace uncertainty. Because uncertainty holds unlimited possibilities. Like you can pursue the path that you've taken all your life, you know where that leads you, or you can take the path that you don't, you know, you can take the path that you you don't know where the destination you don't know where the where the destination is.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

But yeah, and and and and to that point, I I really believe, you know, the 10-15 minutes before and after class, you can have some of the most impactful conversations, the couple minutes, you know, before you go to work or after work when you can talk to your boss frankly, or you can talk to the professor about something. And hey, did you know about this internship? Or hey, I I know this friend that's in this work, I want to connect to you, or things like that. Like you, you just don't know. And and for me, just that hyper-awareness of when I first got out, those those first every interaction was so vivid. So like I just felt like everybody knew you just got out of prison and you're awkward, you're this, you're that, but they but they didn't, and and they engaged me. And so I'm thinking, man, I want to be like that kind of person. And I I wasn't naturally like that before, but now I I realize I don't know what kind of day you're having, I don't know what just happened earlier. But if I ask you genuinely how you're doing, or I follow up on something you said last week, and I don't know what kind of impact that would have, but I want to be that kind of person because I know how it feels to be on the other end of that, and so I think, like you say, it's just it's being there, and you know, that's the one really cool thing about you know being a non-traditional student at Metro, working here is you can show up. There's so many cool people, there's so many opportunities to connect, and yeah, I'm just having a great time. It's it's it's so cool just just to be able to talk freely, right? And and there's no agenda, there's no there's no you know, public service message we're trying to get out. It's just a conversation between two people who've connected because of this program, yeah, and and just the possibilities that can come from that and and jumping on opportunities, right? It's so easy to come up with the reasons not to. And yeah, and for me, I'm a a distance runner and I and I love to run. And I always tell people there's a million reasons not to run, right? My legs hurt, I don't feel like it, it's cold, all these things. But if you can find that one reason to do it, that's all you need. And so if you can find that one reason to show up, forget all the other excuses, and just do it, so many things can happen.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Yeah, and I I agree with that. And it's just making the effort, I mean, making the effort to make the connections with people. Like I I was socially awkward when I was younger, and I I now I make an effort to like speak with people and I I try to form like with me, I form quick friendships. Like I immediately I don't know if like with Nagua, for example. Yep, people people are going to her and like, hey, what's with you, Luke? Because I would pick on her and close because we had a like we formed a quick connection. And I'm the kind of person that's I'm not gonna hold back, like I'm gonna immediately treat you as a friend. And whether that's invasive or a little too much or intense, but it's showing you that I'm interested in you as a person, and if I joke with you or if I it's that level of engagement of like it's my way of like showing the person, like, hey, I'm interested and I like you as a person, so I'm gonna interact with you as a as a friend.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Not like like and I never thought that you were awkward at all. Um ever, ever. Like I noticed you're a little timid the very first day. And I don't know if you remember when I was kind of giving you shit a little bit about the the papers.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Okay, yeah, yeah. I mean, everybody does, right? I mean you come to class two more, and people are like, uh, but then and then when you need it, it's it's there.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yeah, but I I had the I don't know if you remember because I I was like, hey, can I see that because I didn't print it off?

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yeah, and and you know, I think to your point too, like with Nagua, right? So I just get out and and I'm trying to connect at the uh university and and I realize her program has a club, so there's a name on there, and I emailed the club, and Emma Gabbert responded. She says, I'll come meet you right now. I said, Okay, and she's like, I got somebody I want you to meet. I'm like, I've never met either of these people before. And Emma comes over to Coffee Break and CIS and meets me, and and Nagua comes over. She instantly tells me about her story and her struggles. I tell about my thing, and all of a sudden, like those. Two have been two of the most solid people in this program that I met initially, and you know they both graduated now, but it's it's just those things like when you email something somebody off engage, like I mean that's pretty hit or miss if somebody's gonna respond, but then it turned into like people that really care, and so you never know. You never know what email you send or what text message you send out or what person that you stop to talk to, what impact they'll have, and just think the impact you could have on somebody else, too. So yeah, I appreciate you sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Yeah, that's huge too, because I think like for those of you listening that think that Maple students just air out their problems to each other, that's it's a it's an interesting dynamic. You just immediately connect. Like I'm passionate about this, like even meeting you like right away. Like I'm very passionate about just as impacted individuals or people transitioning back into society. And I I appreciated that because you you're very upfront. And like there's a not to get into maple, but there's uh the idea of personal narrative or the using the the power of story to to convey importance or for things that for advocacy, the story of self, the story of us, the story of now, like who you are as a person, what connects us as people, and what's the issue and why it's important that we need to act on it right now. That whole idea, we we do this every day. We do this every day. And then 612, it was a little difficult trying to follow a rigid framework of that. That's a class, by the way, of organizing. But the personal narrative thing, I've really come to learn how powerful that is because when you tell your story, you you're opening yourself up for others to connect with you. Like you have no idea. Like you could be speaking like Maurice and in model legislature, he was also in prison and he was very open about it. He was very open, like he couldn't get his head around cell phones, like smartphones. Yeah. Like he had his someone bought him a brand new iPhone, whatever. I don't know what it's at right now. But and he just was like, Yeah, man, as long as I can make phone calls, I don't care. It's cool that I can take pictures with it. Like that was his favorite thing, like take pictures, but I mean just when I mean like just finding the commonalities or finding the what you have in common with people just by sharing your story. And it's not it's not taboo to share your story because you have no idea like who you will meet that can connect with you.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

And I think that part of it is is so important, and it's not when you can lean into it's okay to be you, like for the first time really in my life. Like when I was an engineering, like I was good at it, and my dad really wanted me to do this, and my uncle's an engineer, and my dad's an architect, and this is what our family does, and like that pressure just to do that. That was my story, is to make them proud and to do that. And now it's like I can be myself, and and I can show up as myself, and and when you can do that, and and I'm not trying to please somebody else, or I'm not trying to make someone else happy, I'm just trying to do good things in life and to be the best version of myself that I can. And and so much of that is reclaiming your story. And and what I mean by that is if you don't say your story or your narrative or or why you care or or something, other people will. Yeah, right? Other people will write your narrative, and it's painfully clear for people in prison that the media and and the news and other people have such a loud voice and they talk about all these things about us. And I'd see stuff on the news, and they speak about what's going on in prison, and they have no idea, and and they're speaking for me. And and just being so sick of people speaking for me, like I can speak for myself. And so having that opportunity to do that, like you say, it it opens doors, it opens doors so many times, and and the chances that I've had to share things and to just talk about it, it it changed myself in the process, right? It uh it goes both ways, right? The people who hear gain from it, and then the person sharing gains the confidence. And and when you can be comfortable with your own existence, with your own journey to this point, then then you don't look back so much in life and you can focus on today, you can focus moving forward. And you know, I think that's the biggest gift that I have in higher education is being able to make sense of life that everything I've been through to realize there's still hope, and then what can I do to turn that hope into action and to to do things that will make life better and and not worse? And so that's that's kind of like the full arc is to be here today to share and to speak is just how can we take what we've been through and not let it define us in a negative way, but say, hey, you know, I I can still show up despite of all these things, and I can still be valued. And and when people will talk about like terms and and what you call people in prison I came in and it was inmate, and then they changed the name tags to offender and then incarcerated person, and then they didn't know what to do, so then there's just a blank spot in our IDs, and then they went and they put our pronouns on her IDs, and then you get out, and now it's justice impacted as a new term, right? And what I always tell people is my my favorite term is person. Like, above all, like just I'm a person, right? Yeah, I have I other identities and and all this other stuff, but like if we can strip down all those other things, like the baggage that comes with it, and just I'm a person here sitting with another person having a conversation, then like possibilities are endless. The the sky's the limit, and and we can engage, but when it's so stuck on this is who you are, and I have this idea of what that person is, it limits myself to imagine you and anything else but what that label is. And so just having a conversation as two people, that's really what opens it up. Labels foreclose on possibilities, but but just seeing the humanity in someone and treating them as a person, then things open up.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

I agree, I really agree. I really can't say anything to follow that.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

No, I just but it just just that context of you know, I there's we we innately have so much power as people, right? Like, I think sometimes we give it up to so many different things and vices and and situations or things that are so outside our control, and and that I mean we all have a million excuses not to show up today. But when we do, like there's so much that we have, you know, and and then once you start building that confidence, like man, if I want to have a good day or not, like how I frame the world is is so much up to that. Like, like I always tell people, frame shifts are free. So many things in life cost us so much. Yep, yep. But the way I look at things, the way I frame my life, my experience, all those things doesn't cost anything. And so if we can just reframe the situation we're in or reframe the the the problem, I think it allows us to look at it with new lenses and and to find solutions or or to see maybe that's not a problem. Everything doesn't have to be a problem. Like, right, I I don't like how this thing's going. Okay. Do I have to act or intervene, or can I find a way just to continue? I mean, I don't have to be okay with it, but how do I keep moving forward? Because if we try to solve everything as a problem, we're just gonna wear ourselves out. I mean, there's there's endless things that we could focus on. So just being able to, you know, show up in the spaces that matter and do what you can do well, lean into your strengths, then you won't wear yourself out. Then you won't, you know, you have to fill yourself as long as you're spending, right? Because if I'm no good for myself, I'm no good for you. That's true. So being the best version of myself allows me to be in community, allows me to to show up in these spaces. So I think that that self-care part is also really important.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

I agree, I agree. And I mean, kind of cycling back, I mean, like people put a lot of emphasis on labels, but if you label a person, you limit that person. And I mean like what you say about a person, you're a person, I'm a person. We each have our own individual journeys. And I mean, I've really learned the value of education, I've really learned the value of being self-sufficient, and it was this was my my personal journey, it was all me. I didn't go to school to please anyone. My dad wanted me to be a a pipe fitter, and nothing against that. Trades are very important, it's just not what I wanted to do. He also wanted me to join the Marines, but I know it's because he didn't know he was trying to suggest directions for me, because he didn't know himself. Because he my both my parents are from the context of they they did what they had to do. They didn't they didn't really have a life of their choice. Like, yes, yes, of course they did, but they had to do quite a lot. They had the struggle, they had to sacrifice all for my sisters and I. And I really appreciate that because that gave me the opportunity to really choose what I wanted to choose. And but going back on like labels, I agree completely. And just showing up. Like you you said something so profound of just showing up, you really reveal what you're you're capable of as a person by just being there, just showing up. And I mean, like, tomorrow can bring whatever. And I've struggled with that a lot, just trying to just take things as they come and just, you know, like we were speaking on the way over here, that the things changed a little bit with the program, and I might I might not graduate uh when I want to graduate, but you know what? Frame shifts are free. Yeah, the only power that outside elements or other people have over you is the power that you give them. And you can reframe that. And it's beautiful because it's like, hey, you know what? I have another semester instead of oh, I have to take another semester. It's I get to take another semester.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Or I have to go to class, I get to go to class tonight. It's it's Wednesday, I get to see my negotiation buddies, or oh, Friday night, six to nine, I'm gonna be in class. Like, I get to go to class. I get to speak with my my classmates for an extra hour after class. I mean, and like I just making the connections and putting yourself out there, I I really agree with that. Well, Andre, I really appreciate your time. Is there anything that you'd like to say more?

SPEAKER_01 55:13

No, I mean, I again I I really appreciate just being here and you know, as I reflect, you know, nine months out, sitting here with you, talking just about life. There's two really m big things that I found in re-entry that I I wasn't looking for, but without them, I w I wouldn't be here, and and that is purpose and belonging. So just you know, I think these things that we do are important, our jobs, going to school, they're all vitally important. But when when you give somebody that belonging, where you feel like if I don't show up, somebody might call or check in on me or see if I'm okay, like and really genuinely care. That's so important. And then when you give somebody purpose, like I have a chance to make a difference. I can go to the Capitol and fit in, I can I can do things. So for me, the the overarching you know thing I want to share is just you know, when you give a person purpose and you give them belonging, like they can make it and anywhere, it doesn't not just re-entry, but just in general, like you can find those things, and and I think the container that holds those two elements is community. So you you get community, you empower people, and as my favorite author Miles Horton would say, the people in the problem are best situated to solve the problem, and you make the road by walking, right? So like we can look at an issue far away in another area and try to critique it and solve it. But when you can be with the people who are experiencing the struggle and empower them to solve the problem, that's when the real change happens. And and for me, people empowered me to be the best version of myself, and and I was able to navigate re-entry and navigate these systems and and and where I'm at, and and just if we can do that for more people, if we can help people find that purpose, anybody can make it, anybody can overcome. And so just looking back, like that's the that's the key for me was I I was able to find those things. And and you know when you find them because you're excited to drive to school, you're excited to go to work, you're excited to interact. When it's not a chore, but it's like, man, this is really cool. And then of course I got down days and things are hard, but like overall, like when you find that you know, and when you find it, like instantly you turn outward and go, man, I want to help the people in my life, my family, my friends, my loved ones, I want to help them find that. Because once they can find that, then they can be the best version of themselves, and then you know, things can change. So I think it's it's it's really that simple. And again, thank you so much for the time today. Thank you for for allowing this opportunity and first podcast ever. So this is maybe the start of something new.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Yeah, well, I think you did great, honestly. No, honestly, I really appreciate you, Andre. I appreciate you as a person, I appreciate getting to know you, and I appreciate you coming on. This is why I wanted you, because you have a very diverse set of experiences, and you've been around a few blocks. And I mean, and that's the thing too. You said it I could not say that any better. Like once you find purpose and belonging, then you can turn that outward and then focus that back, and then you you get those things from community, and then you can turn around and put that back into the community. And I I think that's really beautifully stated. But well, Andre, I greatly appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Yeah, thank you so much, Luke. And I'm just amazed that I find new rooms on campus every day. So never been over here before. So thanks for this one's kind of tucked away, but yeah, this is this is good, but it might be a tucked away space, but you can still get your voice out, and and that's so important.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

So well, thank you, and thank you, listeners. This has been the Metroscope. Please tune in. Episodes will be coming out more frequently as we're recording today, is May 6th, 2026. So we just finished the semester. It was kind of tough for a lot of people. So please excuse the lack of content, but we're going to be recording more episodes quite more frequently. So thank you again for listening. Thank you, Andre. And this has been uh the Metropolitan.